A fascinating interview in Spanish to the Mexican researcher Jacobo Grinberg, who mysteriously disappeared in 1994. In it, he talks about the nature of reality, the nature of Shamanism, which he extensively studied (producing 7 volumes on the subject) and the Sintergic Theory, of his authorship. Fortunately, besides the audio, we have the translated transcript below in English
I will talk to you about the point in which I find myself right now in my understanding of the relationship between consciousness and brain. And maybe with that I can respond to your question.
Well, in first place it is very clear now that we interact with an informational matrix, with an informational field that which contains all the information in every one of its portions. It’s an informational matrix of an holographic type, but at that level there is no quality of experience, there are no objects separated between one another, but instead it is an informational matrix of an extraordinary complexity.
Our brain interacts with this informational field, which some call the quantum field, others like David Bohm called it the implicate order, the Sintergic theory calls it the Sintergic field, in the end it doesn’t matter that much how it is called, actual physicists are talking about a pre-space field, the brain interacts with this field and from this interaction, as and end result from the brain processing, appears the perceptual reality, such as we know it, this is: the objects with their colors, their forms, their textures.
The information of these objects resides in this informational matrix but not the quality, the brain is in someway in charge of decoding this informational field and the end result is the perceptual reality.
Now, in general, we have the confusion of seeing the end result instead as the end result being that of a primary stimuli, and this results from an incapacity to access the process, in other words: the end result from the interaction between the brain with the informational matrix field, this perceptual reality, finds itself at the end point of a process and us as perceivers, as observers, as witnesses, we find ourselves in this end point.
We don’t have access to how the perceptual reality is created but just to the end result, and from this confusion comes the fact that this end result is not our product.
Now, from this point of view the brain capacity, already at this level, this impressive decoding that the brain does of this informational matrix to give way to this perceptual reality, is something that we can’t even understand, how does the brain have a way to achieve this wonder, this miracle of the ordinary and common reality, of what we see as a visual image, what we hear as sound.
There are so many brain operations required to achieve this true miracle, which is the everyday reality, from there I would be risking to say that we are in the face of a mechanism, the human brain, with practically unlimited capacities.
But there’s no need to go beyond, but just to simply consider that this informational matrix that the brain decodes is so complex and even more complex is this perceptual reality for us to fall in awe, to be amazed, to see the capacity that the brain has to make the most ordinary tasks that are our visual, auditory perceptions etc. Etc.
Now, if we go into more complex things it gets even more complicated. So from a physiological point of view we can’t even comprehend what does the system do to function in the everyday ordinary way that it does, so having the boldness to say that there is a limit to this functioning, I would think, is too daring.
Evidently from the works of Jacobo Grinberg, the most important probably, would be the ones that are dedicated to study shamans, the Mexican shamans, Which are the shaman experiences that have impressed you the most?
Look, it is a question which I thank you so much for asking because it will permit me,through this attempt of explanation, to understand so many things that until today I have tried to understand with not that much success.
To me the thing that has most amazed me from all the studies I have done with the Mexican shamans, is that these extraordinary characters function or seem to function in a reality that doesn’t have intermediate steps, in which there is no process.
For example Pachita, she was one of the most astonishing cases that I could bear witness to, I worked with her for several months, Pachita had a patient that came to see her, for example someone that had a lung problem and then if she decided she could somehow directly perceive what was happening to the patient and what the patient required to get better.
If the patient needed it, she would do an operation in which she extracted the sick lungs and inserted healthy lungs, now this is unconceivable, well, today’s surgery starts to do this kind of operations already, but the way in which Pachita used to do these operations was basically bare handed, the only knife she would use would be a rustic knife, to crude, to big, and besides she would operate in minutes, it would be almost instantaneous, that what was done, and every time I saw this and other operations, that are described in this book that you just mentioned, I would be increasingly amazed of the nonexistent intermediate steps, this is: Pachita would take out the sick lung implant the other one and done. In some way everything was fixed, as if there was no need of any series of processes, that normally one would assume, need to occur for the interconnection of the implanted organs. And after asking her what would happen, how she would do this wonder, she would say that the process just occurred like that.
Not only lungs but heart, brain , well, truly extraordinary things that always had this, this extraordinary characteristic in which Pachita seemed to be localized as a sentient being, as a sensible being in a level of reality in which what she desired happened, there was no apparent mechanism between her desire and the realization of the desire.
And if her desire was to materialize an object, that object would appear magically from nothing, or if her desire was to disappear it, it would happen as well, this was the mostly amazing.
And to what this has lead me after so many years of reflection, these wonders that she would do, and more things that other shamans have done, it would be so long to talk about, these I have published in Mexico in 7 volumes called the shamans from Mexico.
In general they, even if none of the shamans that I knew got to Pachita’s level, all the shamans, for example don Panchito, a mayan shaman, had this same characteristic of being localized in a direct state of consciousness, that was manifested in his sensibility, in his marvelous sensibility, in his capacity to decode information in a direct way I would think.
Now, I have tried to explain this in many other ways and the truth is that I haven’t had that much success. And the last thing that I have thought, that I am going to talk to you about, is what comes closer ,according to my ideas, to a possible understanding about what was happening.
I said before that the brain, while interacting with this pre-space informational field, as an end result, creates the perceptual reality.
Now, what I have thought is that this reality that is created as an end result of process, a brain process, once it’s created it has a real existence. This is: what we are seeing: the colors,the forms, exist. They exist in this level I am mentioning, they are at the same time the end result of a processing, but once this is done there is real existence, but they exist as consciousness, not as matter, but as consciousness.
In regards to this idea, Pachita was localized in this consciousness, directly, in the creation already, there was no process, and the laws of this consciousness that we call world, that we call objects, which in reality is pure consciousness, in some way she would work with them. And in this level there are no intermediate steps, since everything is consciousness, since even the objects that we perceive are part of this end result, are part of consciousness.
So then if one is located there in its entirety, if one has no doubt concerning that reality is this level, then one just functions in this level with the laws of this level.
In such way this is what I am starting to conclude after 15 years of thinking about and trying to explain to myself what was happening with Pachita. And if you notice the explanation is one of the most simple ones there is, and at the same time one of the most complex. As to what I believe has the most value, that it is at the same time very simple, very straightforward but at the same time very complex.
Perhaps your Sintergic theory could be the perfect bridge to understand the reality between the sub-atomic quantic universe an the implicate order from David Bohm.
00:10:49 JACOBO GRINBERG
Exactly… exactly and besides I think it’s the beginning, for me it has converted, this new idea that I have been having, in this inexhaustible fountain of adventures of consciousness, in my own consciousness, because obviously, this idea is not just intellectual but comes from a life experience.
And I have been trying to live in that level, trying to remember this all the time and see what happens and it is truly precious, one accepts this reality as a miracle as a creation as part of consciousness, the ordinary becomes sanctified, there is a series of beautiful effects, everything fills with love, there is a great brotherhood between everything because one understands that at that level everything is unified
The studies realized on shamans like Rodolfo Flores who was on our program during summer, as our listeners remember, unify science with the spiritual unity of consciousness that they perceive.
Definitely yes, look, the Sintergic theory affirms that within the processing that the brain makes to construct this perceptual reality, one of the last processes is the creation of the neuronal field, the neuronal field is a matrix, again , but an end result of brain activity or rather it is a matrix of interactions between all the activations of the neurons in our brain, so the Sintergic theory states that this neuronal field interacts with the pre-space matrix and between this interaction appears the perceptual reality, that is the Sintergic theory.
Now, depending of the characteristics of the neuronal field, of its sintergy, specifically about its coherence and about its informational density, its frequency, so will be the level of coherent interaction with the quantum field. It can be predicted or hypothesized that a person with great development should posses a neuronal field of high sintergy.
This is really coherent, really equilibrated, but functioning at high frequency. And this would allow it to interact with a more basic level than that of a neuronal field of less sintergy.
What we saw in the case of Don Rodolfo, who is a really developed person, confirms what I just said, his coherence, his coherence nexus, speaking on more technical terms, the maximum density on his coherence nexus, is localized at high frequencies compared to regular subjects of the same age in which their coherence nexus are in low frequencies. In this way the evidence that we are obtaining at lab level is confirming the Sintergic theory and supporting all these ideas that are being mentioned.
The studies, as we say, have been really complex, really long, there’s been a lot of years that Jacobo Grinberg has dedicated to the shamans, to the interaction between mind and matter, in what moment on your research do you stand now?
I’m understanding this reality as consciousness, all reality, we perceive reality as consciousness and I’m at this point, trying not to forget this, refreshing myself at each moment in this vision, and well, I continue in the lab and I will continue there because there is so much things to do so many hypothesis to test.
For example, at this moment we are going to start, I hope, we are asking for funds because this is going to be expensive and we don’t have the funds, but we are hoping that some organization will help us to study if there are direct interactions between the brain of dolphins and the human brain.
So that we can have experimental evidence about, not only about the existence in regards to the interaction of human brains, which we already have enough evidence for, although we continue in this field, but rather if there exist interactions between the human brain and other species, so the prediction or hypothesis is that there exists a unity of all beings, that is one thing that we are initiating.
Another thing is that we are waiting on a professor from India, a colleague, that is really interested in the study of the transfer-potential, about the brain-to-brain interaction. But now we are trying to do a long distance experiment between India and Mexico. And she’ll be coming for 3 months in the lab so that we can agree, both of us train, have a whole methodology, and we’ll see if we can do the experiment of the transfer potential between India and Mexico.
This is very important because one of the considerations, from the point of view I just mentioned, is that already as consciousness, there are particular laws about consciousness which are not necessarily the laws that we already now or that the physical science knows, and even if at this point there is an agreement, there could be an agreement, and one of the laws about consciousness is the non-locality that is observed in elemental particles, the Einstein-Pollowsky-Rosen paradox points out that between elemental particles there are effects of non-local interaction, what does non-local interaction mean: it means that there exist instantaneous interactions at distance that cannot be explained with the relativistic theory or with any informational system that sends information from one particle to another, but only if we consider that at some level there exists a unity.
So well, we are working hard, there is a whole team of collaborators filled with enthusiasm working in the lab and we are starting to prepare a new book.
In fact, well, in Mexico there appeared a book that’s called “The I(me) as idea”, a portion of this book, I hope that it already appeared in Spain under the name “The Taste of Illumination”, from sirios editorial, I don’t know, I think it already came out.
And we are preparing a new book now, it’s a co-edited book that will be called: “Reality as consciousness and consciousness as reality”, in which all these ideas we’ll be managed, about reality as consciousness, but at the same time as the final product of a processing, and consciousness as reality. Thus there are so many things to do, thank God, so much curiosity for continuing to advance and with so much gratefulness for everything that is occurring.